Curse

WarKaster · May 11, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

not true mekka,

there are tons of Derv Builds that don't use an elite, also i don't mean this to flame or to sound like an a--hole but when was the last time you saw an elite-less warrior build? or any elite-less build for that matter? Yes the few that are around for any profession are still functional but are not as functional as one that does use an elite.
besides it's a lose, lose situation....you don't bring an elite your a Nub for not using one....you bring an elite your a nub for relying on one.

And heres a build that uses no elite has pretty damn good damage and good survivability

Faithful Intervention (spike protection)
Mystic Regen
Mystic Vigor
HoF / Conviction / Armor of Sanctity (works well with Crip. Sweep) / or Zealous Renewal (E management)
Crippling Sweep
Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Twin Moon Sweep (best used right before HoF ends) / Chilling Victory (energy is tighter with Chilling Victory)
Res.

put that together with an energy +5 Energy Zealous Scythe of Enchanting or 15% while enchanted 20/20 Sundering, +20% enchantments (Dwayna's Grace) and you have a Dervish not only dealing out plain ol' nasty damage with crowd control if you bring crippling sweep, and a nice spike heal from victorious. But a decent tank too.

Isil`Zha · May 11, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

in order to use the skills effectivly, you have to look past exactly what they do in order to spike properly. for instance, evis/ex strike/agonizing chop. thats a basic, easy to see one, but dervs dont really have any skill chaining abilities. randomly firing skills isnt very tactical, and even with warrior-like tactics, the best spike would be an attack skill with a fast 1/4 second swing follow up.. and even thats not really a spike.. just a peck

No skill chaining? So you just completely pass over any of the self-enchant-rending attacks? And evis/exe isn't much of a "chain." Executioner's strike doesn't do anything super special...

If you look at the + damage applied, Reaper's Sweep/Victorious Sweep does the exact same thing, except when the Deepwound is applied. The scythe also adds more damage than the axe does, and Reaper's Sweep/Victorious Sweep is more spammable than Evis/Exe.

Quote:

how is that a contradiction? that IS why there are a lot of bad dervs.. enchants are SUPER easy to spam, and as long as you have a general idea of how mysticism works, you'll be fine

Clearly not. Just spamming a wall of enchantments = bad Dervish player, so they won't "be fine." Playing a good Dervish is more complex than playing a good Warrior. Saying its not complex cause you can just "spam a wall of enchantments" is a contradiction because that results in bad dervish players, which you even admitted. IE: It's not complex to play a bad Dervish. Why would I refer to it being complex to play it badly? Nothing is complex when played badly, playing bad is easy.

Quote:

monks.. casters in general will run from you? lol.. also.. if you're not going for healers first... well.. we wont get into basic gameplay. also, when kiting in the backlines, thats where sins/paragons eles are.. they'll be killing you.. and once the warrior is freed up, he'll be coming after you too.. thats why you'd have to stop to heal.. the enchants dont magically put themselves back on

Wait, when did it become me vs an entire team?

Quote:

yeah, and then the enchant is gone.. dont you have to stop to put it back on??? lol.. you allllways have to stop to recast, simple as that.. thats one major flaw in the DPS/Spiking of a derv, they cant stay consistent.

I never said I'd never have to reapply them... but really, it doesn't make that big of a difference, mostly because they hit so hard.

Quote:

ignores dw and hex.. wait wha?? lol.. if you're talking about vital boon, theres tons of things that can stop that. its a cute burst heal, but once its done, you'll be frantically trying to apply it, use it, apply it, wasting time while others continuously damage you

Again with the strawman... Read it again, I said it ignores the effects of deepwound and hexes that reduce healing effectiveness. A Vital Boon that heals for 167 will heal for 167 while inflicted with deepwound, lingering curse, ect. Its effectiveness is never reduced.

Not really, I already explained the enchantment thing before when coming up against enchantment stripping. <--- Concession Accepted on this part.

Quote:

only hits multiple targets IF they're there. most teams wont randomly clump up on you like that unless you're in something like RA. also, Scythes have a terrible low end, that's often hindering their full 40+ damage. yeah, many use Wild Blow, or just hope for lucky high-end strikes, but thats all conditional damage, is inconsistant,

Randomly clump up.. so most teams only employ one melee character? Hint: for multiple melee characters to attack and take out one target, they all have to *gasp* get into melee range. The part your missing would be under advanced Dervish use - tactical positioning, forcing them to all be hit. Most of the time, I need only step backwards a few steps forcing them all to the front of me. It takes them a lot longer to run in an entire circle around me to avoid this - effectively stopping them from dealing damage for a while if they do this, and if they don't I'm inflicting significant damage to the team as a whole.

Quote:

and btw, scythes on average at 16 weapon mastery only hit for 24 dps, 34 with Fury... thats less than all the other weapons in the game.

Burden of Proof is on you to support a claim when you make it, cause according to guildwiki, Hammers only have a DPS of 16.3 with axes and swords being lower. You effectively just helped me out saying scythes actually have significantly more DPS than "any other weapon in the game."

Quote:

that's not factoring in the time between you recasting enchants and trying to actually catch up to your target who is killing your monk.

You just arbitrarily apply specific situations to fit your argument, don't you? Cause it changes every time. I can be specific too - EDA + Crippling sweep and the Warrior after my monk is now snared and shutdown in one attack.

Quote:

SoA? what about it.. all melee have a problem with protters, but consistency is the killer, not pecks of lucky criticals and mediocre attack skills :/

Mediocre eh? That's why Reaper's Sweep/Victorious Sweep does the same amount of damage as Evisc/Exe, can be repeated more often, and Scythes hit harder and will be actually doing more damage than Evisc/Exe does... right...

Oh, and Victorious Sweep can also heal as well, with a condition that isn't too hard meet considering Dervish's natural +25 health from armor and more health from Vital Boon.

Mekkakat · May 11, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Guildwiki is insatiably incorrect on many things, specially that terrible dps number you got for hammers. hammers have the highest dps of all weapons. also, its not making a specific situation to say you have to recast enchants, seeing as i have yet to see a build without enchantments. also, to Warkaster, i didnt say you can have a build without an elite, thats silly, what i did say was that the build doesn't REVOLVE around the elite. warriors give DWs with out relying on elites like reapers or melan+weary, also, look at how many use avatars as their primary function.. thats relying on the elite for their full use potential. reapers is also conditional, while true, being spammable. saying victorious and reapers is a good "combo" btw is like saying so is dual shot+quick shot.. they work well together, but take little to no skill at all.. not to mention EVERYONE uses victorious sweep lol. (if they wield a scythe). how often do melee come for the dervish right off the bat? in my experiences, almost never. most players aren't even concerned with the low damage they put out, and usually ignore them till their healers are dead, then again, thats just my case, might be diff for you all. i know when i'm in TA/GvG/HA, we could care less about a derv in the backline, compared to a warrior. Vital Boon CAN be effected by certain curses btw too, like malign intervention.. but thats not important.

Isil`Zha · May 11, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

Guildwiki is insatiably incorrect on many things, specially that terrible dps number you got for hammers. hammers have the highest dps of all weapons. also, its not making a specific situation to say you have to recast enchants, seeing as i have yet to see a build without enchantments.

Again.. burden of proof, just because you say it's wrong doesn't make it so. And I wasn't referring to the recast enchantments part of your.. scenarios, I was referring to the ridiculousness of them... like me vs an entire team with no support whatsoever from my own team, as though they don't even exist.

Also, concession accepted on every other point that you completely ignored.

Quote:

reapers is also conditional, while true, being spammable. saying victorious and reapers is a good "combo" btw is like saying so is dual shot+quick shot.. they work well together, but take little to no skill at all.. not to mention EVERYONE uses victorious sweep lol. (if they wield a scythe).

So... because they work well together (concession accepted on the Dervish having no skill chains of sorts) and "take little skill" that makes them bad? Congratulations, you just defined yourself as a scrub, making artificial rules like "it's easy to do, so it's bad," ignoring the actual, empirical effects of it. The door swings both ways... Evisc/Exe takes no to little skill to use, and many people take it. Therefore, it's not a good combo.

Quote:

how often do melee come for the dervish right off the bat? in my experiences, almost never. most players aren't even concerned with the low damage they put out,

Jumping to conclusions are we? You completely sidestepped the actual issue and arbitrarily declared Dervish's to have low damage output, despite what has been proven otherwise.

Quote:

and usually ignore them till their healers are dead, then again, thats just my case, might be diff for you all. i know when i'm in TA/GvG/HA, we could care less about a derv in the backline, compared to a warrior. Vital Boon CAN be effected by certain curses btw too, like malign intervention.. but thats not important.

Wrong, Malign Intervention was the first hex I noticed that did not affect Vital Boon's healing.

Mekkakat · May 11, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Again.. burden of proof, just because you say it's wrong doesn't make it so. And I wasn't referring to the recast enchantments part of your.. scenarios, I was referring to the ridiculousness of them... like me vs an entire team with no support whatsoever from my own team, as though they don't even exist.

i didnt say because what i say makes me right. read other post on guru done by other, top notch guru members and you'll see why i said that... of all people i thought you would know that wiki is often subject to being wrong. i also never stated you wouldnt have a team? i dont see where you're getting that.

Also, concession accepted on every other point that you completely ignored.

So... because they work well together (concession accepted on the Dervish having no skill chains of sorts) and "take little skill" that makes them bad? Congratulations, you just defined yourself as a scrub, making artificial rules like "it's easy to do, so it's bad," ignoring the actual, empirical effects of it. The door swings both ways... Evisc/Exe takes no to little skill to use, and many people take it. Therefore, it's not a good combo.

again.. i never said it was bad?? you're the one making it sound like reapers followed by anything was some sort of secret combo that only the pro derv could learn. no, evis+ex strike is by far no amazing combo, lol, pretty basic, if not the most basic of all the combos.. but as skill increases, so does the combo, spike, technique, and everything else. i.e. sever+gash-basic.. sever, gash, final-ok.. thats still baby stuff. but say FGJ, dragon slash, sun and moon (repeat), sever, gash.. well.. that takes timing, skill knowledge, and technique. im not saying its hard in any way, but it sure takes a little more skill than hitting two buttons like a touch ranger by no means is reapers with anything bad, its one of my fav elites for a derv as i've said before, but factor in adrenaline, which harnesses skill in acquiring alone, and multiple chaining skill choice, and the technique/difficulty scales. also, how about we not call each other (er you calling me) a scrub. thats not cool in anyway, and isn't proving your point at all, especially since you either misunderstood what i said, or ignored it to make the ruder comment.

Jumping to conclusions are we? You completely sidestepped the actual issue and arbitrarily declared Dervish's to have low damage output, despite what has been proven otherwise.

im not sidestepping anything. i specifically stated that in all my experiences minus a few select ones, (in which i mentioned the builds) i, nor my team/guild, have ever felt threat to a dervish. thats my personal gaming experience, they hit hard, but not enough, not as consistent, and definitely not as menacingly as a warrior or even a paragon. the dps is counted without the time it takes to recast/cast spells ect. warriors/sins/paragons/ranger (minus preparations), dont waste time doing damage. just my personal take on a dps number that is clearly not factoring in all the normalities of the class (my opinion, dont hate me Isil :P)

Wrong, Malign Intervention was the first hex I noticed that did not affect Vital Boon's healing.

ok you might have me here Isil ol' pal, i'll be honest when i say i have NOT tested this at all, and im not going to cause i'll take your word. BUT, you cant rely on Vital boon to save your tail, cause the cast time and recharge is probably only going to boost you once.. then you're on your own during the main fight, which as far as dexterity, the dervish only holds out but so long :P (in spite of some great heals)

just again, my take on the subject, all opinionated/based off of my experiences primarily against dervs in all forms of pvp. i've also factored in all of the general team for each form of pvp, seeing as most of this is based off of balanced team battles as far as what im mentioning about my previous testing, so its not like the derv wasnt getting healed/party was damaging us/team utility. i've also noticed that dervs do best when there's little to no enchants cast by them (if using an avatar) other than maybe fury. thats in my own testing/gameplay style, and based 100% off of my technique/team use/utility. i dont like wasting time doing damage

. other than Fury, the only excuse to stop moving is for say Harriers/Grasp.. something like that.. utility that is essential.

Van vincing · May 12, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Mekkakat thx for the info about disrupting dagger

But I do have to disagree with the down time bit though. The downtime of avatars are nearly unnoticable. Since I believe everyone should never base their build around an elite (unless if its a smart type of build, like tanking, bombing). The down time at 15 mysticsm for skills like lyssa and balthazar is only 30 seconds (we can use it 75 percent of the time). For avatars with higher recharge time, you'll be suprised by how quickly the avatars become available again.

Im sure you'll be convinced soon enough to enjoy dervishes again. Just try out some avatars with other skills. I personally am quite afraid of balthazar in pvp. I mean, someone with incredible speed and size and armor running pass all walls towards you?? A little scary lol

Mekkakat · May 12, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

most deny Balths use, and say he's the worst.. when in fact, he and melandru are the two best imo. in pve, melandru is king.. er.. queen.. but as far as pvp, i'd take balth first.. if any. reapers sweep and vow of strength are nice if you can boost your raw damage more with say Hekets rampage and some support like Judges Insight+Strength and Honor from a smiter. thats a lil over 150 damage a hit or something like that lol.

Van vincing · May 12, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

you yourself know something about dervishes too. Some stubborn people believe some avatars are useless for no apparent reason at all. Avatars like dwayna, balthazar are very effective against pve enemies, and I have no idea why people think they're useless.

You are starting to like Dervishes again right? I mean since your beginning to understand a lot more.

Also, a random question. Does anyone know a near accurate year of which GW 2 will be released, Im totally looking forward to it. (Also, I hope sometime later guild wars will make skill sets only for avatars, that'll be awesome.)

Mekkakat · May 12, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

i play mostly martial classes in pvp with my guild groups/guest groups, so a lot of the time if we need a dervish, im the one playing it. it's not nearly as annoying to me anymore, and as long as its a build i can really have fun with, usually i enjoy it as much as any other class. as far as GS2, i have no clue lol. beta i think is going to be released something like late 07, early 08.. but i could be like totally off lol.

Anarion Silverhand · May 12, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

reapers sweep and vow of strength are nice if you can boost your raw damage more with say Hekets rampage

Heket's Rampage is actually a really poor IAS on a dervish, you have to invest way too many points in it to be effective. Try Flail or Heart of Fury if running a mysticism heavy build. But otherwise I agree that especially Vow of Strength can be powerful if you are specces correctly.

Mekkakat · May 12, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

the MAIN reason i say Hekets Anarion, and i tested this myself nto believing it at first, its that with Vow+Heket+a Pet of any sort, the PET actually gets an attack boost as well. i read it on a forum on here, then tested it, and it showed up on wiki soon after (even though i rarely trust wiki lol). although i do agree with you, its not the greatest IAS.. but at the same time.. flail? thats a new one for me. never tried it, but i'll give it a whirl.

Isil`Zha · May 12, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

i didnt say because what i say makes me right. read other post on guru done by other, top notch guru members and you'll see why i said that... of all people i thought you would know that wiki is often subject to being wrong. i also never stated you wouldnt have a team? i dont see where you're getting that.

Ad Hominem, you're attacking the site itself, not the actual information. You have still failed to provide any actual evidence yourself still, so my point still stands.

Quote:

again.. i never said it was bad?? you're the one making it sound like reapers followed by anything was some sort of secret combo that only the pro derv could learn. no, evis+ex strike is by far no amazing combo, lol, pretty basic, if not the most basic of all the combos.. but as skill increases, so does the combo, spike, technique, and everything else. i.e. sever+gash-basic.. sever, gash, final-ok.. thats still baby stuff. but say FGJ, dragon slash, sun and moon (repeat), sever, gash.. well.. that takes timing, skill knowledge, and technique. im not saying its hard in any way, but it sure takes a little more skill than hitting two buttons like a touch ranger by no means is reapers with anything bad, its one of my fav elites for a derv as i've said before, but factor in adrenaline, which harnesses skill in acquiring alone, and multiple chaining skill choice, and the technique/difficulty scales. also, how about we not call each other (er you calling me) a scrub. thats not cool in anyway, and isn't proving your point at all, especially since you either misunderstood what i said, or ignored it to make the ruder comment.

You referred to the Reaper's/Victorious combo as if it were a bad combo. My point had to do with you saying that the Dervish doesn't have any good combos, and there's one right there. I used that combo because it very closely resembles the oh so popular Evisc/Exe Warrior combo - and I even showed why the Dervish version is better in more ways than one. And of course the Warrior's going to have more combo options, it's been there for 3 campaigns, but just because you can take different combos to do the same job in a different way doesn't make it superior.

Quote:

im not sidestepping anything. i specifically stated that in all my experiences minus a few select ones, (in which i mentioned the builds) i, nor my team/guild, have ever felt threat to a dervish. thats my personal gaming experience, they hit hard, but not enough, not as consistent, and definitely not as menacingly as a warrior or even a paragon. the dps is counted without the time it takes to recast/cast spells ect. warriors/sins/paragons/ranger (minus preparations), dont waste time doing damage. just my personal take on a dps number that is clearly not factoring in all the normalities of the class (my opinion, dont hate me Isil :P)

It's just too bad for you that opinions don't count for anything in an actual debate, and doesn't prove or disprove anything at all.

Quote:

ok you might have me here Isil ol' pal, i'll be honest when i say i have NOT tested this at all, and im not going to cause i'll take your word. BUT, you cant rely on Vital boon to save your tail, cause the cast time and recharge is probably only going to boost you once.. then you're on your own during the main fight, which as far as dexterity, the dervish only holds out but so long :P (in spite of some great heals)

This is just poor debating right here... very poor. Making claims that you didn't bother to look up or check on at all is just plain dishonesty. Vital boon + Pious light works surprisingly well, but it's a good thing I have a team and monks to back me up as well.

Quote:

just again, my take on the subject, all opinionated/based off of my experiences primarily against dervs in all forms of pvp. i've also factored in all of the general team for each form of pvp, seeing as most of this is based off of balanced team battles as far as what im mentioning about my previous testing, so its not like the derv wasnt getting healed/party was damaging us/team utility. i've also noticed that dervs do best when there's little to no enchants cast by them (if using an avatar) other than maybe fury. thats in my own testing/gameplay style, and based 100% off of my technique/team use/utility. i dont like wasting time doing damage

. other than Fury, the only excuse to stop moving is for say Harriers/Grasp.. something like that.. utility that is essential.

Most of a Dervish's enchantments are utility... I did already post about my use of enchantments with a Dervish though.

Oh, and let's take care of this "slowing down Dervish's damage with enchantments" bit. Again, if you play it right, it really doesn't. A scythe swings ever 1.75 seconds, correct? Nearly all Dervish enchantments have <= 1s cast time. That's why I just wait until immediately after a scythe attack, then recast an enchantment. Instead of standing there doing nothing during that time between attacks, I'm reapplying enchantments, and after the enchantment is done my scythe swings immediately - time between attacks and damage output is therefore unaffected.

Isil`Zha · May 12, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

This wasn't really directly related to my post above so...

Let's look at mathematically average damage based on damage ranges.

Scythe Average Damage per hit = (9+10+11+12... +41) / 33 = 25
Axe = (6+7+8+9... +28) / 23 = 17
Sword = (15+16+17+18.... +22) / 8 = 18.5
Hammer = (19+20+21+22... +35) / 17 = 27

Criticals:

Scythe - 41 * sqrt 2 = 57.98
Axe - 28 * sqrt 2 = 39.59
Sword - 22 * sqrt 2 = 31
Hammer - 35 * sqrt 2 = 49

DPS, based on 1000 second interval:

Weapon stats are assumed to be set at 12, with a 17% chance to critical hit, with no inscriptions or customization on a 60AL target.

Scythe - 1000/1.75 = 571 attacks, 97 being criticals. 480 * 25 (avg dmg) = 12,000 + (97 * 57 [crit dmg]) = 17,529 / 1000 seconds = 17.52 DPS
Axe - 1000/1.33 = 751 attacks, 127 criticals. 624 * 17 = 10,608 + (127 * 39) = 15,561 / 1000 = 15.56 DPS
Sword - 1000/1.33 = 751, 127 criticals. 624 * 18 = 11,232 + (127 * 31) = 15,169 / 1000 = 15.16 DPS
Hammer - 1000/1.75 = 571, 97 criticals. 480 * 27 = 12,960 + (97 * 39) = 16,743 / 1000 = 16.74 DPS

So as you can see, if you were to attack for 1,000 seconds with each weapon, mathmatically the Scythe has the highest DPS. While the Hammer will do slightly more damage for an average hit, the very high criticals of the Scythe make the scythe overtake the hammer in terms of DPS. Also as Ruadvin pointed out (and you didn't try to refute so isn't an issue anymore,) many Hammer attacks either have no + damage with them, or very little - most being KDs. Interestingly, Axes and Swords are nearly dead even, with the Sword having the lowest DPS.

EDIT: Source for figuring damage.

Additional Edit:
I just remembered how much I hate RA... and to show you how useless such anecdotes are.

Did about 11 games, won about half, lost the other half, didn't have one decent team. Not a single team would acknowledge a called target and do whatever the hell they please... like attack the E/D tank the entire match instead of the Monk. Virtually all of them quit within seconds of dying - I'd usually be halfway through using my rez on them and they'd up and quit. RA is a horrid form of PvP with horrid players (quit immediately after dying once?)

That being said, I not only made the most kills of anyone (most of the time I made the only kills... >.<) in every game I was always the last one standing, my only heals being Vital Boon and Pious Light - for most of the games I used Heart of Fury, Crippling Sweep, Wounding Strike, Victorious Sweep, and Mystic Sweep... nearly instant death for all non-warriors. I just wish my teams didn't completely ignore my called targets (like the Monk instead of the E/D...) and then quit the instant they fall. >.<

The Wonder Llama · May 14, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17

This is mostly to Mekkakat, but anyone else feel free to respond as well.

I think one issue that may be causing trouble comparing dervishes to other classes is that there's a pretty broad range of dervish builds out there, and they each play differently from one another. For instance, an elite form dervish is going to have a certain play style. By comparison, other dervish builds will likely rely on multiple enchantments. Even then, they may be relying on the enchantments staying up most of the time, or they may be relying on dropping them frequently. The play style will be different depending. It's even viable to play an enchantment-lite dervish that goes heavy on scythe skills. Use forsaken insignia, then figure out what you're going to do for your self-heal, and you're off. Once again the play style is going to be quite different.

Unfortunately, the upshot is that more coordination may be needed for a dervish to work well with a group. When I'm monking, and there's a dervish in the group, I usually want to see their build so I can make sure I don't foul them up or waste spells on them. Healing Breeze, for instance would be wasteful to cast on a dervish that relies on dropping enchantments. By comparison, many protection enchantments work especially well on this same style of build. (Of course, everyone should be checking builds anyway. The dervish is simply penalized a bit more if you don't.)

In addition to being a poor test environment, random arena is one situation where you're going to find very little coordination. So in a sense, random arena is a worst case scenario for comparing dervish builds.

I know you originally discarded PvE as a means of comparison, but PvE does have a few things going for it when it comes to comparing and testing builds. The monsters in PvE are very consistent in number, location, and behavior. Many of the groups in PvE also tend to spike damage of one sort or another. A build that can survive a spike in PvE may actually perform better in PvP owing to the fact that there are no level 21-32 players out there.

While PvE may be "easier" than PvP from a variety of perspectives, it's certainly possible to get yourself killed in PvE (especially in hard mode.) So rather than rely on a lot of anecdotal evidence from a bunch of random arena games where you aren't even sure what builds were being used or the relative skill of the players, why not present some builds that play strong in a particular PvE environment, and compare them to dervish builds in the same environment?

You mentioned that you farm with your warrior. What do you farm, and where? If you presented us with the build and the environment, we would have something concrete to examine and compare to a dervish build in the same situation.

Mekkakat · May 14, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

i can solo all of proph and factions, and most of nf with my warrior. part my builds, part witte. as far as farming, i dont really farm much now, but when i did, caves and uw was all i really did. caves for fun if i was bored, uw for steady obvious income. i also mentioned in later post that there were more pvp test other than RA llama. its cool if you didnt read the other post, but i thought i'd mention that, specially seeing as a lot of people hate RA for many reasons. again, the main reason why i brought that up first, was because utility shouldnt equal one category. anti melee can still have great defense against spellcasters, ranged fighting close combat ect. it seems like dervishes are so "specialized" and "difficult", that their versatility more or less hinders them half of the time. enchants hurting them, anti melee as usual, ect. even the most specialized class in the game seems to have more options IN COMBAT than the dervish, which is the mesmer. they can turn the tide every way you look, and even if they're build for one set up, they can hold their own. i see Vigored dervs that rely on attacking for HP, then they get snared, ripped, and antimeleed into submission, because they cant attack. or spell casting dervs ripped up, backfired, the works. im not saying this happens all of the time, but it happens too much, for people NOT having to set up purposely FOR dervishes. some people in GvG/HA come set to kill mesmers, ready with their guns, and they have to work hard, and while they're doing it, a derv is in their face, and they kill him in seconds instead, with the same tactics as killing the spellcasters. same thing with antimelee ect. im sure a derv could easily farm in pve, but that really doesnt constitute anything in the game... almost every class can solo something. i solo with my paragon all the time, and i have no problems. a dervish is nothing but a warrior/monk with some tricks. sure, some of the tricks are nice, but most are really played out already, and almost totally ineffective, specially seeing as no class or team has to specifically TRY to counter them, when they're this goop of random moves and skills, waiting to be slammed on. its nice to see the melting pot of all the classes, but it feels too humdrum and inconsistent to really call a "good" class. some play them well, but that doesnt account for the whole community in any way, and the good players are always outweighed in any class, and even with the derv being a little newer, they aren't seemingly getting better as a community, they aren't getting any good builds, and they aren't making some huge difference in the game like many dervishes claim them to be. i never see them get groups in DoA, UW, FoW, Urg, Deep, nothing. they arent in gvg unless some lame bomb, that gets smashed by hex ways, eurohexing, bloodspiking, or even paraways. im just not impressed in the overall state of the class. that might not mean much to any of you, and thats fine, im not asking you all to for whatever reason feel like you need to convince me or anything of the sort. im impressed with the better derv players, the ones that use the class to its full potential (with what it has), and while i haven't seen many yet, i have high hopes for Gwen, its skills, and the more skilled players will get utilizing some.. not so cookie moves. i dont mind staples, i dont mind classics, but lack of creativity, copying, and poor playing skill due to flat out misuse is practically all the dervish community has right now, and its pretty boring, sad, and totally useless to the pve/pvp scene. i never see dervs anywhere in pve getting picked for HM anything, and worse, when i finally do see a few in GvG/HA, its the same builds over and over.. losing. seemingly TA is the first and only place i've seen a few teams with dervs succeed, in which i had to congratulate them for being part of that few. i dont hate the class itself, just what its become because of its community so far. they aren't invincible, they arent spikeproof, they aren't the ultimate class. thats called being unbalanced in the first place, and second place, they havent gotten out of second-rate melee yet as far as i have seen. maybe im in all the wrong spots at all the wrong time, and if i am, i hope i get to where the good dervs are soon, cause the class just ain't cuttin' it for me.

chaoskirina · May 14, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Perhaps indeed you were in the wrong spots. I have seen some dervs take on a boss by themselves and walk away. I myself make a comeback as well. my spell-proof derv serves me well and I am just still trying to figure out a melee defense method but it is coming along. doesn't need to attack to heal or anything. Not to mention the hidden well that exists within the forms, all of them having a different way to survive. in PvE, dwayna I use more than balthazar since I get great heals and it stacks well with my high regen as well. I find this far more useful than additional armor and a speed buff. in FA and JQ I use melandrus, vital boon, and mystic regen along with chilling victory and victorious sweep. in PvP I still see grenth form users around. rarely yes but they shall make a comeback one day. and of course some sins who don't even use melee, they are more rather spikers or healers. sure they're not great healers but then again extra help helps. as for offensive casting dervs they live as spikers mainly, shadow stepping in and unloading then shadow stepping out to recharge and even one where you shadow step in THEN cast all the enchants then unload then shadow step out or go suicidal with death nova and burning speed as well as others. so yes, you may be seeing the wrong type of dervs and right now they are still like how the sin first was, over-used and over-popular and this usually results in idiotic users who don't know the first thing about GW. as for PvP a dervs role was never to tank it was meant to take out as many people with you as you can and last as long as you can while doing it. you will die but you will at least have taken as many people out as you could at the time. mesmers can go against ANY profession with the right build and they too can fall to a dervish or warrior since they are not invincibile either. warriors can tank mainly just as paragons main role is a last defense tank as well as party support. an assassins role is to spike and take out key members of an opposing party while rangers act as artillery. Mesmers are to stop offensive casters and such while the monk acts to heal. the ele is to cause as much damage a possible while the monk heals those he parties with. the ritualist aids in both combat and defense by summoning spirits, forging spirit weapons, and using urns to boost his own power while the dervish acts as the frontline offensive force. the necromancers job is to create problems for the enemy, either through minion or curse. Each profession has a specific job and it is our duty to find out what it is, how we can do it, see if it can be anything else, and perform well while having fun. Personally I do not know if you are just having a bad day, week, month or year or if you are just frustrated at losing or not having your way or you are slightly xenophobic, especially about new anythings that become popular because you are non-conformist. I find the dervish, of all classes, a solid and fun profession. if you do not like it still, then fine that is your opinion but I hold mine as it is and no persuasion can deter it.

Mekkakat · May 14, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

im glad you have a strong constitution Chaoskirina, an no, im not trying to sway your mind. i have been having a bad month with all of this depressing testing lol. i only play dervish myself when im doing certain personal test, in which i have np winning in whatever arena/pve, but its when im fighting other dervs, and my team disposes of theirs so fast, its not a challenge. you use a lot of the basic roles for each class, and explain how the dervish can be multiple things, making it super versatile. they may have some versatility, but so does every other class. i see your points though, and im not really in the mood for counter points or debating today, so all i'll say is im starting my last testing phase, which with be HA PUGS with derv frontliners, to see how good they fare.. i mean.. you dont go to HA with zero knowledge of the game.. er.. at least im hoping.. so we'll see. thanks again Chaoskirina

Isil`Zha · May 15, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

So despite that I've proven several of your claims of a Dervish wrong, you brush it off as if it didn't happen and continue to post it as if it were fact. Not all of your post mind you, I'm not really concerned about your opinions or continued dislike of them. But issues like "anything can shutdown a Dervish" is just completely untrue - this was already covered and you did nothing to disprove it.

Also, your concession is accepted on every point in my last two posts, that you just skipped over offering no resistance too. Coincidentally, most of the former post was about Scythe damage, and in the latter post I proved that you were completely wrong (probably because you had zero evidence) and that the Scythe in fact has the highest DPS over anything in the Warrior's arsenal. And even though the scythe can hit for pretty low, it can also hit very high and will hit, on average, for higher than either Swords or Axes, and not much less than a Hammer.

The last part was just to show yet again why anecdotes, especially in RA, are useless as proof for anything - cause it can be used to "prove" anything.

Note: Reposted cause something weird happened... duplicate deleted.

Mekkakat · May 15, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

i'm not going to keep going back and forth with you because no one else has really had the chance to say how they feel. if feeling like you're right or whatever makes you feel good, its not like i care. i dont have a problem with dervishes, neither do any of my friends/guildies/allies. thats how it is for us, seemingly most people, and that's the end of story. if you dont like that, make a point to try and help other not so good dervishes play better instead of trying to make them sound invincible. ALL classes can be shut down, and dervishes make it a little easier for other classes, because they have a good bit of weaknesses. explaining one or two specific examples of how a derv can survive one spike, or one rip, or one or two hexes, isnt anything like a real battle, where the dervish wouldn't even be thought of as a threat half of the time in our cases. i didnt feel like linking the dps url in my post about scythe damage, but if you do some research, its pretty easy to find on here. i dont see what makes you so dead set on "winning" the general post, or "proving" me "wrong", seeing as it's my opinion and experiences seeing/observing the dervish community, and i'm not saying i'm "right" other than what i see.

Isil`Zha · May 15, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

i'm not going to keep going back and forth with you because no one else has really had the chance to say how they feel. if feeling like you're right or whatever makes you feel good, its not like i care. i dont have a problem with dervishes, neither do any of my friends/guildies/allies. thats how it is for us, seemingly most people, and that's the end of story. if you dont like that, make a point to try and help other not so good dervishes play better instead of trying to make them sound invincible.

It's been two days, and you just chose to ignore it. I provided evidence to backup my claims, you provided nothing. Also, I pointed out plenty of ways to play a Dervish better, no where did I say they were invincible.

Quote:

ALL classes can be shut down, and dervishes make it a little easier for other classes, because they have a good bit of weaknesses. explaining one or two specific examples of how a derv can survive one spike, or one rip, or one or two hexes, isnt anything like a real battle,

Of course all classes can be shut down, but saying a Dervish is easier is false. I explained why there, and provided some examples of that use. It would take ages to make an example of every possible situation, if you can't adapt your strategy for such situations, then you're not a good Dervish. Shutdown is = unable to do anything offensively. Blinding a Dervish, anti-melee hexes or anti-caster hexes and conditions do not seperately shutdown a Dervish. And any Dervish that backfires himself to death is most definitely not a good player by any stretch.

Quote:

where the dervish wouldn't even be thought of as a threat half of the time in our cases. i didnt feel like linking the dps url in my post about scythe damage, but if you do some research, its pretty easy to find on here.

Sorry, that's not how it works. You make a claim, you back it up, else we end up with pure BS like your bit about Melign Intervention affecting Vital Boon. Clearly you know nothing of logical, factual debate. So yes, you may want to do some research. I actually went and researched how damage is figured and used that to find the DPS of several weapons, which showed not only were you completely wrong, but you didn't bother to get a shred of evidence or fact, what with you saying a scythe does 25 DPS and has the lowest, when it only does 17 DPS which is higher than the DPS of any Warrior weapon.

Quote:

i dont see what makes you so dead set on "winning" the general post, or "proving" me "wrong", seeing as it's my opinion and experiences seeing/observing the dervish community, and i'm not saying i'm "right" other than what i see.

Again, I could really care less about your opinion, but saying things like "the DPS is proven lower on a derv than on a warrior", or "scythes on average at 16 weapon mastery only hit for 24 dps, 34 with Fury... thats less than all the other weapons in the game." are not matters of opinion, they are objective statements, except in your case not only did you provide zero evidence to back it up, you were also completely wrong. I proved above that the Scythe has higher DPS than any Warrior weapon, upping it to 16 and recalculating it won't change which weapon has more DPS than it other, since by upping the weapon mastery they'd all scale up by the same percent. Going from 12 to 16 would up the damage by 15% for each weapon (source), it would push the DPS of the scythe from 17.52 DPS to 20.14 DPS, Axes from 15.56 DPS to 17.89 DPS, Swords from 15.16 DPS to 17.4 DPS, and Hammers from 16.74 DPS to 19.25 DPS. This is only an expression, not a flame, but it's clear you just pulled numbers and various "facts" out of your ass.

Anyway, if you had noticed my post before this one was a closing statement since you essentially gave up. You haven't even attempted to disprove anything (repeating the exact same [wrong] thing doesn't count), nor do you provide any evidence for any of your claims of objective subjects. Hint: DPS is not subjective, not an opinion.

So, unless your next post actually tries to refute something, with actual logical reasoning and evidence instead of just repeating yourself, I'm done here. Getting the last word doesn't do anything either, by the way, so unless it's something constructive don't bother to reply - otherwise my points all stand uncontested - Concession Accepted.

QED

EDIT: And please, for everyone else's sake, use the enter key once in a while and quit with the wall'o'text.